Dr. Ann Gillies (00:13):

Welcome to Truth Talks today. Well, I have my good friend, Wilna van Beek back again. I told you, I promised that we would have her back to share her experience, life experience, because one of the reasons that Wilna does what she does and that we’ve traveled to Africa together to speak on gender and sexuality, on healing and restoration. So, we’ve had some experiences of life together, Wilna and I, as well. And I said to her after our Saskatchewan experience in early October that perhaps we need to go on the road together because we balance each other really well. We have two different kind of perspectives perhaps, but Wilna today, is going to share her own personal journey because it is what motivates her to speak out and to share the need to protect our children at all costs. So welcome to you. Oh, look at me. I’m saying “velcome”. I think I’m Dutch. Oh, welcome, Wilna. And I just really, really honor you today, and I’m so excited for you to share your experiences with our listeners because people need to understand the truth about “conversion therapy”, the truth about the journey, the difficult journey it is for many people who choose an alternative lifestyle. So Wilna, wherever you want to start, you go right ahead.

Wilna van Beek (01:57):

Boy, as you were introducing me, I’m like, okay, I can go this way. I can go that way. And so maybe you need to come in between and kind of either ask me questions or redirect me because you already said so many good things. And I’m thinking, can I say something here? I got to say something there, and then of course I probably will forget. But anyway, yeah, thank you. This is such a privilege to be able to share my journey and a controversial journey as I say it often to people. But here’s the reality is as a former lesbian, I speak from a place of I’ve been there, done that, and I have the experience, so I have walked in their shoes. So, for this, I have a lot of compassion with the LGBTQ community, including even the activists. It’s like, I’ve been there, done that.

(03:03):

I know why you get angry, I know all these things, but regardless, so I grew up in South Africa, and as long as I remember I just wanted to be a boy. I had no idea really why I felt like that. But let me tell you, if I have lived in the day and age that we live today, I probably would have wanted to embrace getting a sex change. I just wanted to be a boy. And there was a myth in South Africa that said, if you can run under a rainbow, it’ll change your sex. I literally, when we would have a thunderstorm and there would be a rainbow in the sky, what did I do? I ran outside. And of course you run towards the rainbow. And as we know, when you come close to a rainbow, it actually moves away because I was pretty serious, because I just wanted to be a boy.

(04:16):

So yeah, I grew up in a home, very dysfunctional. And when I say these things, I say it with respect because it’s not to blame my parents, but there was lots of turmoil going on. I had a father who physically abused my mom, and then in turn, my mom abused my father verbally. And so, there was just fighting going on and here I was, and I have siblings as well. I can’t speak for them, I speak for myself, but would watch them destroying each other. And I often also heard from my own mother that she said it often that she was going to kill herself. And here I am, a little girl, traumatized by it, and I’m thinking to myself, how will I live without my mom? I pray to God that if it’s possible that my parents would just go their separate ways so that they can stop fighting. And so here I am, a little girl, observing all of this, and so fear entered into my home.

Dr. Ann Gillies (05:35):

Yes.

(05:38):

Wilna, as I listen to you, (we have so many similarities in our early childhood) but I was thinking about something that you said, and you just said the last word there, “fear,” because that’s what I was thinking. It’s not about hatred, it’s about fear. Fear is our enemy. Fear is the real enemy because it shuts us down, it shuts our mind down, it shuts our emotions down, and it drives us into things that, for you became a way of living because you had a lot of fear that as a woman, that you might even be like your mom and maybe not be able to protect yourself. Is that kind of part of your experience?

Wilna van Beek (06:27):

Well, you see, what the fear did to me is I actually made a promise to myself when I was basically after I was born, in fact, and people need to read my book and we can talk about my book a little bit later, but I explained in the book how the Holy Spirit actually took me back into my mother’s womb when everything started. But I’m not going to talk too much about that. But I made a promise to myself starting in my mother’s womb that when I am born, when I get out of this place in my mother’s womb, I would not let any man touch me. And it was actually true that I was told later in my life that my grandfather, when he tried to hold me and which grandfather is there, who doesn’t want to hold his grandbaby, when he would touch me, I would scream.

(07:28):

I was also told that I not only pushed my grandfather away, but I also pushed my own father away because, why? This fear made me, well, I’m afraid of all men. And that created then bitterness and hatred towards them because I didn’t feel safe with them. And so what happened then is this fear drove me into the arms of women. I felt safe there. I felt I belonged there, I could talk to people, I just felt safe. And then over time, this became sexualized. And there it was same-sex attractions that happened. So, I will say this, is that I wasn’t born this way, but the root of same sex attractions in my life was fear. And later in life, as I then had the opportunity to deal with the root, my same-sex attractions actually went away.

Dr. Ann Gillies (08:38):

So Wilna,

Wilna van Beek (08:39):

Go ahead.

Dr. Ann Gillies (08:40):

Can you told me I could interrupt you.

(08:43):

So, this really for me validates much of what I have seen in private practice when I treated adult survivors of chronic sexual abuse. Is that right from the time they were in their mother’s womb, there was trauma that happened because they would talk about, just like you, how their parents were violent toward one another and they knew either from siblings or just knew. There’s sometimes we have people in the LGBTQ community that say, “I just know I’m gay.” Well, I want to just say this and put this out there. These individuals often have deep trauma right from the time of almost, conception. And I mean that’s in utero, but fear, we understand now psychologically that, and we’ve seen, because we can experiment with all these things, that children, that infants in their mother’s womb, can hear and can respond to whatever’s going outside on outside. And so, when there’s violence in the home, the infant, that baby in the womb knows. And so that’s kind of what you were able to identify. And because you’ve got siblings too, I mean they can clarify that for you, but the reality is that those incidences at such an early age impact you for life.

Wilna van Beek (10:30):

Absolutely.

Dr. Ann Gillies (10:30):

They impact you.

Wilna van Beek (10:32):

And it was actually this whole fear route did not get exposed until I was 50 years old. And that is not that long ago. I will say it, I’m not shy about my age. I will be 60 next year. So, it’s only 10 years ago that at some point I had some anger issues showing up suddenly. And then of course, I didn’t know what it was, I didn’t know where it was coming from. And then I went for help to a ministry in Idaho, the United States, and as I was, so I went not for my same-sex attractions, which was still present at that time, even though I chose celibacy. It’s now 20 years ago, and I can talk a little bit about that in a few minutes. But then as I went to this ministry to deal with my anger, the Holy Spirit took me back into my mother’s womb and showed me what happened there.

(11:51):

And when this root of fear was cut a few months after the ministry experience to deal with this anger, this is a classic example of healing that actually really took place in my heart. Up till that point in my life, I would not let any man touch me. I would always be like, don’t come close to me because I’m afraid. So, I went on holidays. It was just about five, six months after my ministry experience, and I went on holidays and there was a spa, and then made an appointment with a massage therapist. And then I was told the only massage therapist here is a man. And at that moment I was like, Ooh. Because when you go for a massage, you really basically take everything off. You lay under a blanket and they massage you. There was no fear. So, I agreed.

(13:05):

I agreed that he would do it. And I laid there for an hour appointment and I was just marveling. I just get goosebumps as I’m saying this. And I realized at that time I realized that the fear of men had gone away. And then over time then, so then of course the root was dealt with. There was not that fear towards any man, man men anymore. And then later as I would engage with girlfriends, which of course I would never engage with girlfriends because I’m looking at them sexually, but sometimes that same sex-feeling with arise in your belly and stuff like that, it has never happened ever again. So that’s why I can say today that my same-sex attractions has diminished and it’s no longer existing. So where am I going? Do you want to ask more questions?

Dr. Ann Gillies (14:11):

That was really profound actually, Wilna. And I hadn’t heard that part about going to the massage therapist. I knew that you had a fear of men, but that really is such a profound sense of healing and restoration to your soul because, and I think people listening, I think anyone who’s walked in fear, I mean this is more like terror. I mean, we have different ways to describe things, but I think it would be better described as terror because men terrified you. And not that you had been sexually abused by men, but just the experience. This is why we have to be so understanding. I think with individuals within the LGBTQ communities, many, well I would say nearly a hundred percent have experienced significant issues of trauma in their lives. And from a therapeutic perspective, that creates this void, it creates this searching, it creates all kinds of things, and we all react in different ways, but we need to identify and we need to give people the ability to acknowledge what’s happened to them. And I find now that there was a time when if you were in the community, it was okay to acknowledge what had happened to you and to get help. But that seems to be pretty much cut off for LGBT people now. It’s almost like they can’t talk about it. They have to suppress it. They can only celebrate the community and not discuss the things that perhaps are wrong and that affect them at very deep levels. So, I just really applaud your openness, Wilna.

(16:16):

It’s been 20 years since you left the community. You left lesbianism. Tell me a little bit. It’s got to have been difficult, though. So, you were 10 years after you left before you actually had the freedom from fear.

Wilna van Beek (16:38):

And I never knew I had that fear. Of course, I prayed to God to please remove my same-sex attractions from me, and it never really went away. And so of course didn’t go to have ministry because I wanted to talk about my same-sex attractions. But then after the fact of dealing with the roots, then realized that it had gone away. And this is why I am not a psychiatrist. I am just a farmer. I grew up, I call myself a redneck farmer. I don’t have the credentials that you have, and I’ve only written one book. But the reason why I wrote my book, because initially I thought that I would share my story with people, but because I was so terrified to share my story, because often I got ridiculed, judged, and people made jokes of it. And so then I finally, I did write a book and it’s called When Gay Comes Home: Learning to Build Bridges. It’s probably the other way around. Can you read it? Can you see it?

Dr. Ann Gillies (17:55):

Yes.

Wilna van Beek (17:57):

When Gay Comes Home: Learning to Build Bridges, it’s like with a hope that people will understand where I was coming from, from the side of a child, and what has happened in my home. And again, it is not to continue to badmouth my parents. I had to get to a place in my life where I had to take responsibility for my own life. But here’s something that I have learned is because of the root, all of us in some way or another, if a good root bear, good fruit, but bad roots bear bad fruit. And oftentimes, our young children, they are reacting or they are actually bearing fruit. And if only we will start to pay attention to the root of the fruit and not just dealing with the symptoms. I think we will see a lot of restoration in our families, in our children. And this is why I’m so adamant, even though I’m not a psychiatrist, but a lot of things that I see or that I say, I’m sure you can confirm because of research and all the stuff that you do, but I wrote the book because I was hoping that it will help many parents not only understanding their homosexual loved one when they come out of the closet or announcing it, but to learn even the place of where I was coming from.

(19:45):

And hopefully that will help. And I know I’m not answering your question. Was it hard to leave? For me, 20 years ago, the reason why I came to this place was I became a Christian in the early nineties and really wanted to follow Jesus wholeheartedly. But I struggled with same-sex attractions. My mom gave me a Bible when I was a young girl. I have read my Bible. I have learned what God’s will for my life is, and to live a homosexual life was not His will for my life. But here’s what happened to me. Of course, I didn’t want to live this lifestyle, but as I say, often same-sex attractions is unwanted. And I guess this can go in a different direction as well. But I never wanted it. I never wanted to live a homosexual lifestyle, but I did it anyway because I just wanted to be loved and I wanted to belong. And so the right person showed up at the right place at right time, or the way I describe it, the wrong person, at the wrong place at the wrong time. And boom, I would enter into a relationship. This is what happened to me because I tried to follow Jesus wholeheartedly. When I entered into a living and practicing a homosexual lifestyle, I felt a wall would go up between me and God. I felt separated from him, and this separation brought me,

(21:34):

it actually created a leanness in my soul. I felt that dryness in my soul. And so, this brought me back to my knees in 2003. There came a day that I chose to walk away, and I fell on my bedroom floor that I will never forget, fell on my bedroom floor. I cried out God, I said, “God, I cannot live without your presence in my life any longer.” I called things for what they were for the first time in my life that day because I wasn’t willing to acknowledge that I was gay, that I experienced same sex-attractions. I didn’t want to acknowledge it. But that day I did. And I said, “Lord, I have tried everything to change and I wasn’t successful.” So, I said to him, “Here I am. I need your help.” And that became the turning point. It was extremely hard to walk away, in a sense, from my same-sex partner at the time.

(22:40):

She was devastated. And I stayed living in the same house because I didn’t have another option. And then to move into a different bedroom, it was hard. It wasn’t easy to make that decision per se, and to see how heartbroken that she was. And I knew that I hurt her, but I just felt really strongly that I wanted to follow Jesus wholeheartedly. So, it cost me. I also chose celibacy at the time. And so that now has been 20 years that I have been living celibate and following Jesus. And of course, both you and I know we’re not perfect, but it’s a process and a lot of healing has come into my life. I continued and kept searching for help. And then I explained to you what happened 10 years ago. I had anger issues coming up. I wanted to deal with it, and then the root was cut, and now my same sex-attractions disappeared. So, I am so grateful for a pastor, actually, pastors and people that God placed in my life that was willing to listen to me and talk to me, and that I can be where I am today, not living this anymore. And I have so much peace in my heart. My story has so many facets, so many routes that I can go. And I hope that a little bit that I’m sharing today is encouraging to people.

Dr. Ann Gillies (24:28):

I am praying that there are people watching today that really hear your heart and understand your journey, and that they would understand that for many who actually leave the community, and there are many, many who have over the decades left the community for one reason or another, but they made some choices. And those choices are their right. We have a human right to make the choices that we make in life as long as we’re not harming someone else, of course. And so, for those people who are struggling because there’s some part of this experience that they do not want to have anymore, I pray that they will find hope and reassurance in what you’ve said. Not that life is easy for anyone, for anyone. I remember telling my son, actually, I was just talking to our youngest son. He was home for the holiday, and we were talking about just life.

(25:40):

And I said to him, Matthew, when after the divorce from my first husband who was homosexual and who sexually abused our children, after that divorce, I mean, several months down the road, I remember thinking and just praying and saying, God, whatever happens. I mean, my heart was that I really felt that God would give me another husband. I felt that. But I said to him, I would rather never marry again than be in the wrong relationship. And that’s before God. And I think we make choices as we go along the journey of life, and we should be able to have our choices honored. I honor you, Wilna. Your walk has not been easy. You’re a single woman, a farmer, and we’re both rednecks. So, I’ll confess that too. That’s why we get along so well. But no, I mean, you have such a gentle spirit and a great heart, and I just want to just applaud you because you really have such a wonderful presence with people and such a strong testimony. So, thank you for joining me again today, and probably down the road we’ll talk again because I’m sure we’re going to do more events

Wilna van Beek (27:15):

We have so many things to share. But thank you so much for having me again, and it’s always good to be with you, and I appreciate you and all the work that you are doing. And yeah, until the next time.

Dr. Ann Gillies (27:32):

Yes, absolutely. And don’t forget Wilna’s book When Gay Comes Home. It is a really good book to read to understand just some of the, well for sure Wilna’s journey. But we need to understand the bigger picture as well in this whole conversation.

(27:47):

So,

(27:48):

thank you, Wilna, and we’ll see you again.

Wilna van Beek (27:50):

Have a good day.

Narrator (27:54):

You’ve been listening to Truth Talks with Dr. Ann. Thank you so much for joining us today. You can find Ann’s books, blog, and sign up for the newsletter by going to restoringthemosaic.ca.